Comments on: 9mm NATO vs. 9mm Luger

By: TJP

TJP — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 16:29:30 +0000

SAAMI maximum averages are based on a general agreement between SAAMI members with respect to what they feel is safe. There is a buffer zone of safety, since pressure will vary between individual cartridges. Garden variety commercial ammo probably doesn’t approach the maximum average. If you have read the history of the 5.56 NATO, you’ll note that the DOD has a slightly different set of priorities. Remember, too, that military brass is thicker.

CIP maximum averages may be different than SAAMI’s in either direction. Since the advent of more accurate pressure testing, 357 S&W Mag loads in this country have been dialed back to a more sane 35K psi. However, the Vihta Vuori data has.357 loads that I would not want to put in a J-Frame Smith. (A 158 grain JHP going 1,569 fps? Holy smokes!)

While I prefer tough military brass in my Enfields, I would shy away from 9mm NATO. The 9×19 is a) a pain in the neck to load as it is, b) I’m lazy, and c) reducing all my loads to account for lesser internal case volume seems like extra “work” to me.

And for those of you worried about the velocity difference: don’t worry about it. A hand loader can get 1,200+ (4″ tube) with standard pressure, because he is not required to stick to propellants that are approved by some military standards board.

By: Carteach0

Carteach0 — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 11:02:47 +0000

Interesting stuff Caleb. I had read ‘someplace’ (must be a great place, since everyone gets all their data from there) that 9mm Nato mimics the older German hotly loaded 9×19 made for SMG’s.

I suppose I am loading my 9×19 practice ammo for my carry gun to ’9mm Nato’ levels instead of ’9mm +p’ levels (g).

By: Trebor

Trebor — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 06:06:06 +0000

That should be “specificially”. Darn clumsy fingers (or possibly general inability to spell).

By: Trebor

Trebor — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 06:04:57 +0000

I actually would avoid shooting 9mm NATO or 9mm +P *specically* in the P-1.

There is a known problem with frame cracks with the P-1 design. The Germans later modified the pistol design for increased durability. The later guns have a hex bolt in the frame, but even those guns have been known to crack. (The hex bolt itself isn’t the important mod, but it’s presence indicates the other mods are present).

So, I’d stick with standard SAAMI spec ammo for the P-1 and avoid both NATO spec and +P.

By: Caleb

Caleb — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 00:56:01 +0000

handloads.com for the SAAMI specs.

By: hypnagogue

hypnagogue — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 00:33:54 +0000

What source are you using for your SAAMI specs? Everything I’ve seen has 9mm +P listed at 38,500 PSI (+10%).

By: chris

chris — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 23:01:46 +0000

i have strong suspicions that you couldnt hurt a ruger with any 9mm rounds including NATO loads…

By: Caleb

Caleb — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 18:00:52 +0000

Yeah, from a terminal ballistics standpoint I agree – both rounds are going to make a small permanent wound cavity and penetrate like the dickens.

When I think about it, it makes sense that Luger would prefer high velocity ammo, because it was designed by Zee Germans; who according to wikipedia loaded the 9mm to “NATO” pressures back during WWII.

I’m honestly not much of an expert in WWII firearms, I just stick with the rule of thumb that I don’t run +P ammo in anything over 40 years old. While some may be safe, I’d rather avoid the risk entirely.

By: Farmer Frank

Farmer Frank — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:57:44 +0000

A couple of things; although there is a difference in the bullet weight and muzzle velocity, I doubt if the terminal ballistics on living creatures would be all that much different between the two because they are both FMJ bullets.

If however you install a barrel with an abnormally slow rate of twist, the results are dramatically different at close ranges as I discovered to my delight when I ran a professional trap line.

As for the Luger, if the headspace is correct those guns were designed for higher pressure, higher velocity ammo and often won’t function correctly with our standard run-of-the-mill 9mm Luger ammo. It’s been a big bug-a-boo with the Luger since I was a kid and that was decades ago.

All The Best,
Frank W. James

By: Caleb

Caleb — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 16:59:39 +0000

Just because they say that they’re +P rated doesn’t mean it’s a safe or smart idea to use +P ammo in them. Aside from the fact that’s it’s a wretched ball of fuck, that is.