This whole thing started when someone asked a question that was both fallacious and dismissive.

I am actually arguing a moderate position. The games are good for what they are. Just don’t make them more than that. Being a master gamer does not make one an expert fighter. There are axillary skills in fighting. Let us call these statements the “Key Point.”

I am NOT against gaming, hell, I game. The games are training and for many of us they are “practice” that is graded. Anyone serious about defense should game for purposes of, well, what Tam said… Just don’t get so focused on the minutia that you lose track of your goal.

I don’t understand the “real warriors don’t game” BS, and at the same time I recognize that the games have limits. The games, at least the run n gun type have certain “speed skills” that are great at shaving time off your score, but don’t really help in a fight. An example would be having a speed load technique that is fast and slick but requires a giant funnel on the mag well. If your carry gun doesn’t have a funnel, the phrase “accident waiting to happen” comes to mind.

Hey, I remember that episode of Doctor Who!

But, yeah you have a point. Stuff that gun games don’t often cover well? Duck and Look Around. Moving backwards seems to be pretty shaky in my parts as well, since most of the time you’re moving forward or across the range for safety reasons. And moving backwards is really important if you need to make a fighting withdrawal. Lets face it, that’s basically my go to tactical maneuver. And if I have to execute a mag change with enemies left standing, its really going to the top of the list.

But Tam is right (is that on a t-shirt?), tactics and situational awareness aren’t what you’re playing the games for anyway.

Who exactly are you talking about here? None of the “Warrior Ethos” trainers I can think of tell people to avoid gun games, just not to rely on them or get so wrapped up in winning trophies they accumulate bad habits or do stupid things to their guns and gear.

Like I said at Tam’s, training and competition are both parts of a balanced shooters diet. It’s a bad idea to go exclusive on one or the other.

It was his performance inside a bank lobby that inspired Jeff Cooper to create the El Pres (and I don’t care what the record shows or who says what about the El Pres drill, Cirillo shot three men dead with a 6 shot .38 before the first man fell. Cooper attributes much to Cirillo’s performance on that Stake Out Squad and I believe the El Pres was one of those attributions.)

What is even more surprising about Cirillo’s performance and performance is the equipment and the ammunition he was forced to use. Mostly it was two Model 10 S&W loaded with SWC 158 gr. .38 Special ammo. But he told me that the best gun and round in his experience was the M-1 Carbine when loaded with 110 gr. Hollow Point rounds. He said that worked better even than a .45 Auto with Hardball ammo which he wasn’t supposed to use or have on duty.

Jimmy and I were friends, but I was never with him enough or long enough to call him a close friend. He always treated me with respect and for that I am extremely appreciative.

In my opinion, he was the REAL DEAL and probably the Greatest of the 20th Century Gunfighters, even if my buddy Walt Rauch told him with a smile he shot all those guys “…over bait”.

I miss Jimmy Cirillo. He was truly a Legend and a Modern Day Gunfighter.

All The Best,
Frank W. James

Now my info on Mr. Cirillo is limited…

Please understand that I am not saying this to be confrontational or dismissive, but this and too many other things you’ve said in here either betray a lack of information on the topic at hand or evince a false dichotomy (ie. “Competition is running around with a dot-sighted blaster, while combat is… well, whatever.)

All competition is going to have rules. For instance IDPA, which is Caleb’s primary venue of competitive shooting, penalizes one for not using available cover on a stage. However, they dock points for not shooting targets in order of “tactical priority”, when my “tactical priority” is “the first threatening mofo I see that I think I can hit catches a bullet“. If IDPA was going to be ultra-realistic for the civilian shooter on the street (like me) it would time how fast I could dive behind solid cover and dial 911.

Competition is not to practice tactics. Nobody is ever going to be in a situation where they need to charge through a maze of plywood doorways and yellow tape while fending off pieces of cardboard. Competition is there to practice hitting what you are aiming at while under time and peer pressure, sometimes while on the move or from unorthodox positions.

Most of Jim Cirillo’s competition was PPC and Charles Askins shot bullseye and neither of those men seemed hampered by their stylized forms of competition. After all, trigger control is trigger control and sight alignment is sight alignment and busting a cap is busting a cap, and learning to do those things on the clock and under a critical eye is invaluable.

For the record, the questions that were important to Cirillo when standing up a unit of trigger-pullers and door-kickers were as follows:

1. Are you a competitive shooter?
2. Have you competed in major matches and won awards?
3. Can you perform well under pressure or fear?
4. Are you a hunter? Have you shot big game?
5. Do you like outdoor physical sports?
6. Do you collect firearms? Do you reload ammo?
7. If you are over 28, are you married? Do you have children?
8. Do you like people? Do you attend civic affairs?

If you can answer “yes” to at least seven of these questions, you can make it. If you make all twelve, you will likely walk away from almost any armed confrontation.

Remember one important fact: even if you do fit the above profile in all aspects, you still must be able to train at least two hours per week, with someone else administering unknown judgment firearms courses under time limits and psychological pressure.

-Jim Cirillo; Guns, Bullets, and Gunfighting, pp. 59-60.

Now, if I was on a SWAT team, the first thing I would change would be that I’d be shooting a carbine, not some silly-assed handgun. I would also try a lot harder to not shoot hostages.