In the tradition of awesome projects like The Quest for Master Class, Down Zero TV, and inspired by Todd Green’s endurance testing of Glocks, S&W M&Ps, and the HK P30 and HK45 it is my great pleasure to announce that starting on June 6th, 2011 Team Gun Nuts will launch our greatest endeavor ever.
F***ing up a Kel-Tec PF9
We are going to buy a Kel-Tec PF9 at retail, and then all we’re going to do with it is shoot it. We are constantly getting emails from readers and fans about how Kel-Tec’s are reliable, and I don’t believe them because I’ve seen multiple examples of the PF9 fail, some in fairly spectacular fashion. I’m not doing this because I hate Kel-Tec – I am doing this specifically because I believe that there are far better guns out there than the PF9, and instead of spending $300 on one of those, you would be much better off buying a used revolver or police trade in Glock.
So stay tuned in June for the Kel-Tec Torture Chronicles!
Why don’t you do a side by side comparison test?
Pick a $1,200 1911 and run it side by side.
See which one fails first.
instead of spending $300 on one of those, you would be much better off buying a used revolver or police trade in Glock.
Well there are a couple of problems with that.
Most new shooters don’t have the knowledge to determine if a used firearm is in good shape or was traded in because it wouldn’t run.
Second, the market in their area may not have used firearms available but most big box stores carry those $300 firearms that you rail against.
By the way, I paid $330 dollars for my Taurus Millennium Pro PT145 and it has ran flawlessly for nearly 2 years.
Third, Your bias is showing. Instead of showing any evidence that $300 dollar guns are worse than more expensive models, you are simply trying an argument from authority.
Where is the evidence to support your position?
Bob, I have already run a $1200 1911 through these tests, and it did just fine. My Sig TacOps passed the 2000 Round Challenge with flying colors.
Also, what I’m technically doing is “putting my money where my mouth is”. I’ve always said that Kel-Tecs are generally inferior guns, so I’m going to actually buy one and shoot it just like I would a proper gun from a major manufacturer such as Sig or Beretta. If the gun holds up to the sort of abuse I expect a firearm to hold up to, I will happily retract any negative statements I’ve ever made out it.
I want to see a well documented test. What happens, when it happens, and a likely cause of why it happened. Unbiased reviews and evaluations are often hard to come by and I’d love to see one here.
Absolutely. Every test parameter we use, every time the gun gets cleaned and lubricated will be noted in the outline. One of the big things I want to do is see if a Kel-Tec can be treated like a proper service pistol and still run, or if it requires delicate maintenance.
Perhaps you didn’t read this F***ing up a Kel-Tec PF9.
Yeah, I’d look elsewhere for unbiased Kel-Tec Reviews.
I guess you skipped the day of school when they covered “hyperbole?”
Hyperbole is the worse thing EVER!
Like the gun mags who get a new Kel-Tec T&E gun from the factory every time they crank out a new model or chambering, and who has a banner ad for them in full-color?
There is no such thing as unbiased reviews. Either the person is interested in doing further reviews, or they’re interested in proving a point.
A neutral person simply has no interest in reviewing anything.
I love these tests, Caleb. It never ceases to annoy me how often you will hear gun writers go on about the poor quality from budget manufacturer’s based on… what? A few anecdotes from people who shoot nearby at the range? That’s useful, but you don’t know how the gun was maintained, how many rounds had been through it, etc. We’ve all seen Glocks fail as well. Running one gun hard isn’t the end or be-all, either, but it is a much stronger data point.
I was really looking forward to seeing the results of the Hi Point Challenge over at Way of the MultiGun, but he seems to have moved on to other things.
In all seriousness, you have got probably about a 50/50 chance of getting one that runs great. The flip side of that coin is that you could get one that chokes out within the first 100 rds. That just the way it is with Kel-Tec…. you put down your money and ya takes your chances
However, if you are unlucky enough to get one that is a POS, and then send it back to Kel-Tec… you will get something back that runs like a champ.
*Might be an interesting test to do both out of the box and also back from repairs testing
**Full disclosure. I carry a Kel-Tec P32 on many occasions. It took a return trip to Florida, but now it is rock solid and dependable
BS on the $300 Glock or S&W guns. Why do people say stuff like that when in reality they go for around $400? It’s either naivety or stretching reality just to make a point. Oh, sure there’s always the “deal of a lifetime” that someone somewhere runs into, but in general, on the open market, you’d have to wait years to find one of those guns for anywhere near that price and then you’d better be damned quick getting to it first.
You mean a used S&W revolver for less than $300 like any one of the literally dozens of guns on this page? You lose, friend.
http://www.summitgunbroker.com/G22_2nd_gen__.html
Not quite $300, but with shipping and FFL, will be in the $360ish range, granted I see where the misperception comes from. Locally in my area, people seem to think used Glocks are worth 600 bones.
Express Police Supply routinely sells $299 used G2 Gluck22s.
I hope it runs like a top…
My P3AT and PM9 have been awesome so far. They may not be the most refined pistols on the market, but I can carry it places where I cannot carry a police trade in glock.
I much prefer to carry my Glock 19, But it’s important to remember that a lot of us will be fired in the spot if we get caught carrying a firearm at work, and that bending over to pick up kids makes traditional concealed carry DIFFICULT.
AMEN, Scott. I don’t carry a PF-9 because it’s perfectly failproof and tack-driving. I carry it because that’s the biggest thing I can pack with 99.9% chance of never printing.
It’s easy to conceal a mid/full-sized gun in a few standing and sitting pictures on a website, but what about when you’re bending over, crawling under equipment, or just outdoors in a wind that’s gusting 30mph? (Seriously, the wind thing is COMPLETELY overlooked in most of the carry pictures I’ve seen, and would ruin many of the example pictures provided by holster makers/reviewers.)
For what it’s worth, I can keep the rapid-fire from my PF-9 within a torso at 15 yards, and the one failure I’ve had was an extreme case of limp-writing.
I am excited to see the results of the test, though, and would rather see gunwriters approach ALL guns with skepticism rather than blind enthusiasm. If the gun does exhibit problems from the beginning I think the factory repair/replacement should be a part of the test, since that would be part of the experience for anyone who personally buys one. (And don’t mention you’re using the gun for review!)
Yep, I’ve been VERY happy with my P3AT. Now, granted, I have about 500 or so rounds through it and not 5,000, but what it does, it does well.
I didnt see any revolvers capable of pocket carry for under $300 in that list.
Better comparison guns might be a snubbie Taurus or Charter Arms, or even go head-to-head with a Taurus 709 or the Kel-Tec’s chief nemesis, the LC9.
Justin over at Way Of The Multigun did something similar: He started out saying “Okay, enough of this Hi-Points RULE!” business on The High Road, let’s see what a Hi-Point is REALLY capable of, with some interesting results…
I’d like to see all of the micro 9s get wrung out like this. I do think the PF9 is a great place to start. Never had much faith in them and yet I bought a P32 before the P3AT came out.
Seriously thinking about a replacing the P32 with a Bodyguard .380
My friend bought a Bodyguard 380 for his wife, and it shoots pretty well. Solid construction and it handles the recoil well for its size. The laser isn’t fast to activate, but it doesn’t add much bulk and the gun also has great sights for a micro.
Of course, there was one incident where his thumb brushed the takedown lever during recoil and the slide and barrel almost fell off the end of the frame. I wouldn’t want that to happen during a firefight.
Another vote for the side-by-side comparison….maybe a PF9 vs. a Charter Arms Undercover/Off-Duty?……
The PF-9 is one of those guns that is carried a lot and shot a little. Besides, Kel Tec sets the life expectancy of their pistols at 6,000 rounds.
I’ve put a variety of ball and HP’s through mine. Almost 600 rounds and the only time it malf’d was when I let a woman shoot it. Somehow she couldn’t NOT limp wrist it.
I don’t even really shoot it that much anymore. I know where the DPX’s land and I know it doesn’t balk on me when I shoot it. I find no need to “abuse” it just to see if it’s the equal to other pistols.
And I don’t lose sleep thinking “Well, it hasn’t failed me yet, but maybe it will the next 100 rounds I shoot it?”
I’d also like to add that just because you’ve seen them fail it doesn’t make others into liars. ….Which is pretty much what you’re calling us.
You’ll want to lube it like a Sig. As somebody who’s cracked a frame on one, snapped a firing pin on it as well, and gone through three sets of recoil springs. It’s not a delicate flower, but it’s also on a duty weapon. It’s the gun I carry when I have to tuck in my shirt. :)
I shot my PF9 about ~900 rounds without cleaning it properly before the firing pin snapped.
Got I love the smack down, when it comes to pride in one brand of gun. I love Fords because I grew up with Fords, but I drive a Nissan! I love springfield’s, because my first 1911 was a springfield. My second springfield was junk. I truely believe that every manufacture on any given day can produce a good firearm and a bad one on the same line. It can just happen. It what they do about it that counts.
Ok I admit it. I own a PF9. I like the little gun alot. Bought it when money was tight and needed a smaller gun to carry during the summer. I dont believe by any means that it is the best firearm in the world, but I have not had any problems either. I have not come close to shooting 2000 rounds through it yet either. Bang away Caleb! I will enjoy seeing your results either way they go.
This is an awesome idea. I eagerly await results. Like others, I would love to see similar tests done on other brands also so a bigger picture can be made on the pocket 9 category so that we know what’s a problem with the size category (pocket 9) and what is simply manufacturers/design fault.
A far more realistic test would be a PF9 vs an LC9.
“PF9 torture test!”
Cool. Use it, run it hard, tell us what you did and exactly what happened.
It’s a specialized niche gun. I’ve got one, and mine is OK, but I realize not everyone has that experience.
As a guy who owns a P11 and would consider buying a PF9 at some point, I would be interested in the result as well.
One thing to remember about pocket guns is that some people live in States where they can become felons, if their shirts ride up a bit too high. Here in the Democratic Peoples Republic of New York, even the holster needs to remain concealed (unless it’s disguised as a fanny pack, purse, etc.).
I like the idea a lot. The PF9 is bigger than the Kahr PM9 I carry daily so I do not need one. On the other hand I might well do the same type of challenge. I love my KelTec Sub 2000 and it fits a niche in my lifestyle as a travelling gun. It did need a replacement heat treated hammer pin at 1500 rounds. The factory took care of it on the spot when I visited. Using a PF9 for IDPA and the local three gun matches I shoot at the club level could be fun. Practice and matches could give me a good 2000 plus rounds by the end of the year and the ammo is already in the house. GREAT IDEA! Thanks Caleb. :)
Caleb: I think the big hurdle in any ‘endurance’ test of a firearm is the cleaning procedure.
Years ago I did a number of these things for various ‘annuals’ and I’ve come to the opinion we really need to sit down and establish a uniform and standardized ‘cleaning’ procedure.
First of all, no matter how ‘good’ the gun is, THEY ALL NEED TO BE CLEANED because in a high round count afternoon unburnt powder gets into the action. When combined with excessive or perhaps the wrong type of lubrication can create an abrasive mix that resembles value grinding compound. And this can induce wear where normally there would be little to none in terms of dimensional deteroriation.
To really make your test worthwhile, establish a rigid cleaning procedure and then have a single person be responsible for sticking to it and make sure that all the protocols are followed obediently.
Doing 5,000 rds in 6 hours is still a good means of evaluating a pistol, but the cleaning procedure can influence the results…
All The Best,
Frank W. James
I couldn’t imagine anyone firing 5k rounds out of a PF-9 in six hours… or six days. They’re not exactly fun to shoot for extended periods. After about 50 rounds I’m usually ready to switch to something else.
Being a PF-9 owner and knowing the issues many folks have had, I’ll be interested in Caleb’s results. If his wrist holds out… heh.
Fanboys crack me up.
I think I heard somewhere that the PF-9 takes about a 100 rounds to break-in. Are you going give it time to properly break-in before you start the challenge? Totally psyched to see the results!!
I am a fan of Glocks, when they came out with a 9mm with the same dimensions / weight as the PF-9, I will buy one, and leave my Keltec at home, until then….
You are comparing apples to oranges.