In the comments to the post about shady kung-fu, I have been shockingly accused (I am not shocked) of elitism and condescension towards point shooting. I am not opposed to point shooting. I am not kidding when I say that I point shoot stuff all the time during IDPA and USPSA matches. Wide open paper targets inside of 5 yards? Totally going to point shoot that. In the video below, I was pretty much body-index shooting for the first string of fire, because I know that when shooting 2-handed I can index a target at 7 yards and just go for it.
Just so that I am very clear. Point-shooting, or body index shooting whatever you want to call is a valuable technique to have as part of your shooting skillset. I didn’t always think this way, and a search of the posts here on Gun Nuts will find some older content where I am 100% against point shooting. But then one day I came to understand the concept of “see what you need to see” – so that when I’m shooting at distant or very small targets I’ll use a refined sight picture, but for up close stuff my sight picture degrades as dictated by the speed I want to get hits at.
My concern with DOA Tactical’s video, aside from the obvious safety concerns of shooting into gravel at sub-10 feet without eye protection is that they present body-index shooting/unsighted fire as “the” solution to all gunfighting problems a civilian could encounter based on the questionable assumption that “no one remembers using their sights in a gunfight”. Caleb’s bottom line: I like point shooting. I like whatever method gets hits on target as fast as possible. Larry Vickers says all the time that “Speed is fine – Accuracy is final”.
Hopefully not too offtopic, and I’m not intending to start another horrid safety-gotcha thread with this.
At one of the ranges I compete at, the unload after the string of fire might draw a warning from an RO. Its hard to tell from the video, but the angle of the gun looks as though the muzzle could be aimed above the berm that is to your left and downrange.
This may also be specific to the range I shoot at, I don’t know how common restrictions like that are. Have you seen any rules like that?
“I like point shooting. I like whatever method gets hits on target as fast as possible.”
Very well put,that should be the end of the argument right there.
Another rule: you don’t know what kind of gunfight you’ll get into. Just because the average armed encounter is at (x) distance with (y) assailents doesn’t mean that all encounters happen within those guidelines.
Thus, a shooter should be able to function in multiple situations- and should get quality instruction by good instructors for that reason.
Joe in PNG,
I agree.
As I commented on the original post, my issue with point shooting is that the usefulness is limited to close engagements. In CQB, only hits (and repeated hits) count. Hit the T-zone or the heart with your first shot. Or two to the chest and one to the head once the enemy has succumbed to the trauma.
Once you have transitioned to your sidearm, it has become serious.
I don’t want my new shooters to start with point shooting and then learn aimed fire. I want them to learn aimed fire and then add tools such as point shooting.
This:
I don’t want my new shooters to start with point shooting and then learn aimed fire. I want them to learn aimed fire and then add tools such as point shooting.
for the win.
Caleb
I have never said that point shooting ” they present body-index shooting/unsighted fire as “the” solution to all gun fighting problems a civilian could encounter based on the questionable assumption that “no one remembers using their sights in a gunfight” so stop with that any time now. This was a short clip of a level 1 class. We also teach all of the NRA Disciplines and in no way do they allow no sights. You have obviously never been in a gun fight and that is okay not everyone can be thank goodness. You are going way off on this point shooting as you call it. This is a self Defense class, if my students are engaging a target at 50 yards then they should bve running for cover and their AR and when they get to court I am sure they will be put in Jail. Caleb again I invite you to come out hereand shoot I am not going to ask you again. You are a target shooter and that is great they do not shoot back. I have nothing against target shooting or the competitions they serve.
Caleb, take the class already LOL
They are teaching on Friday morning, come on out :-) I was taught that a pistol is only to be used for fighting your way to your AR ;-) But as Brent pointed out, you are then also are going to jail haha I have watched 55 year old women take this class who go from not being able to hit the broad side of a barn from a sitting bench rest with a dozen sandbags with all the sight alignment in the world–to drilling 3 inch steel plates at 7 yards from the draw! The teaching method and technique taught is remarkable and I recommend you take Brent up on his offer–if it’s possible to teach an old coast guard salty dog new tricks. ;-)
Dear Caleb-
You wrote: ” they present body-index shooting/unsighted fire as “the” solution to all gunfighting problems a civilian could encounter based on the questionable assumption that “no one remembers using their sights in a gunfight”. ”
Obviously you have never been in combat or in an actual gunfight.
Marksmanship without sights IS achievable with DOA Tactical’s class. 3″ groups at a minimum.
Take the class.
Stop defaming USMC Combat Veterans that are sharing their skills that DO work- and are accurate.
Take the class.
It is not point shooting.
TAKE THE CLASS.
If you are unable to take the class and experience it for yourself, please stop critiquing it online.
You are probably busy calculating trajectories into space and or performing surgical organ transplants at your day job.
Actually, this is my day job. It beats the hell out of a real job!
So are you going to take the class?
The Technique DOA uses is not Point shooting… There technique is highly accurate and extremely fast. Both attributes are essential in a real life shoot out. Most shoot outs take place within 7 yards but their technique is effective at much further distances. There is a large difference between techniques used for competition shooting and techniques used for defending your life in a firefight. Take Brent’s offer up and take the course who knows you actually might win more competitions. Brent and John are great you will love the course.